Pilgrimage Moments: The Art of Forgiveness Transcript

Amanda:  Look at this, he's laid this table and everything for us. He's so lovely.

Spencer:   Did Eshaan do all this? What a legend.

Eshaan:    Right then Pilgrims.

Eshaan:    That's very kind. But you've got to taste it first.

Sonali:     And then we can give compliments to the chef.

Amanda:  100% on presentation.

Spencer:   Mashallah.

Eshaan:    Thank you. Brother. Thank you very much. Well, um, thank you to whatever it is you believe in for bringing us all together and giving us the opportunity to experience nature in all its glory, and for giving me the time, ability and space to be able to cook and feed my fellow pilgrims. Because feeding people is the way I show love. So if nothing else, even if you don't like the food, you at least know that I love you.

Eshaan:    Thank you.

Eshaan:    Enjoy. Enjoy the meal.

Sonali:     Eshaan. Thank you. This means even more for me because it is the eve of the holiest eight days in the Jain calendar.

Spencer:   Oh, really?

Sonali:     Tonight, so as of tomorrow, lots of Jains around the world will fast. Some of them even for eight days. Right. No food. I've never attempted the full eight days. I've not even. I've never gone over one day because it's not something that I want to do. Right. It's called Kshamavani . It's the festival of forgiveness. And what we say to each other is anytime you see anyone, you know, it's been part of your life over the last year, you say Micchami Dukkadam, which means please forgive me for anything that I may have said to you that offended you. Yeah. You know, on purpose, accidentally and all of that.

Tom:        I think if you don't mind, seeing as we're getting in these, you know, thin spaces in these spiritual head spaces which I have been in like a few times during this pilgrimage, I would like to use this opportunity to have one day fast tomorrow.

Spencer:   I'll do 24 hours with you.

Eshaan:    I'm also happy to try.

Spencer:   For Jains, 24 hours is nothing. And it's a little show of solidarity. Solidarity for Jains. And we should do it.

Tom:        What is it to say? Forgive me for anything that I've done.

Sonali:     Micchami Dukkadam,

Tom:        Micchami Dukkadam,

Sonali:     Which again.

Tom:        Micchami Dukkadam,

Spencer:   There's a big, um, theme of forgiveness through lots of the stuff that you said around Jainism in particular. Is that a really common theme through most religion, or is it specifically to Jain?

Sonali:     My understanding is it's part of a lot of religions. People always say, you cannot move on if you don't forgive. It's the greatest form of love, you know. Has any good come out of someone not forgiving someone?

Eshaan:    I've not forgiven God for what happened to my mum. She died very unexpectedly in the space of a week.

Spencer:   I find it really interesting that you would blame Allah for taking your mother.

Eshaan:    It's not so much that I blamed God. It's just that I knew my mum believed.

Spencer:   Yeah.

Eshaan:    And I was told my whole life. God decides, God gets involved. God decides your fate. And when I get criticised by other Muslims, as I often do because of my comedy, those critics. Whenever they come at me, I always think to myself, you know, you're so fervent in this belief. The moment my mum took her last breath, there was this being that my mum also believed in. Made the decision, according to your scripture, to take my mum away from me. And for me it was like, who is he to decide that? So I know I haven't let go of that. And I know a lot about Islam, and there's a lot about Islamic philosophy that I'm quite proud of and I think is beautiful and wonderful and I, I share with you, Alhamdulillah, all this stuff, you know, I'll share with you guys, but I will never, ever there will never be a time in my life where I will ever be a practising Muslim.

Spencer:   I personally don't feel that it needs to be literal forgiveness, like sitting down with someone and go you are forgiven. You know, like my brother's death, my parents and my other older brother knew that. You know, climbing Everest was a dangerous thing, particularly in 1999. Um, we were originally told that Mike was kind of lost on the mountain, and as a family, we treated his death, just as you would. Um, it was only kind of weeks later that we heard that there were some very serious issues with oxygen on the mountain. We thought for a very long time that it essentially was negligence. And it's very difficult to to prove any of that. But it's what we were hearing and it was a difficult thing to grow up with. I hated those people. Like I grew up hating those people, and I would I would get drunk when I was young and I would go into these holes of, like, wanting to harm these people. Yeah. Um, and I don't get that at all anymore. I don't necessarily forgive them, but I have let it go. Yeah. You know, there's no point in feeling the pain and the agony of the death 25 years after it's happened. I just realised that ultimately, harboring any kind of negative energy towards these people was was a waste of my time. I felt, you know, I've certainly tried to use Mike's death as a driver for good in my life. And, you know, I, I pray to him from time to time and kind of feel like he's a good presence in my life. Instead of feeling sad about him not being with me or wondering what could have been all the time.

Eshaan:    If you don't, if you don't mind me asking. You don't have to answer the question if you don't want to. What do you think Mike would say to you now if you saw the man you become?

Spencer:   Mike would love my kids. Mike would love my kids. And he would love my wife and like. And that's. I think he'd be delighted for me in that regard.

Eshaan:    He'd also love you. I mean, the fact that he was on Everest doing something so extreme. And the few days that I've known you, you are 100% his brother. You are a chip off the old block. Yeah, I've already messaged my friends about you and said, you know, it's so great to have someone like Spencer in my life because you inspire me. Do you know what I mean?

Spencer:   That's very kind, he inspired me, so.

Eshaan:    Yeah. So there you go. He's just passing down.

Sonali:     Michael's here with us.

Spencer:   Yeah, that's very kind of you. Thank you.